On the shoulders of Jötnar: interview with Ylenia Oliverio ("Il Bosco di Chiatri", "Vanatrú Italia")

Today we are in the company of Ylenia Oliverio, president of the "Il Bosco di Chiatri" association and above all of the "Vanatrú Italia" section, focused on the study and dissemination of the ancient Norse cultic and ritualistic tradition, especially the Seiðr and , in fact, Vanatrú.

di Marco Maculotti

Cover: John Charles Dollman, FAMINE, 1904

Hi Ylenia, and thank you for joining us today! Can you summarize in a few words what the work of the association consists of, with reference to both the collective and the individual dimensions? 

Hello Marco. Our association operates on national and foreign territory, and focuses attention on the witchcraft practice of Northern European and Eurasian matrix. Our goal is the theoretical and practical preparation of witches with an all European specification, and completely free from Abrahamic contamination. Everything passes from collective preparation to an individual sectorization of each of our associates.

Can you tell us about the process that you usually refer to in your writings as "ritual mimesis"? What importance does it have in your ritual?

The mimesis we refer to is a process that we extracted from Baumgarten's philosophical substance to apply it in the demonology and demonolatry of our pertinence. The importance lies in its essence which makes our ritual reality perception and discipline. Obviously we are not tied only to the first Platonic theories of mimesis, but we conceptualize ourselves in the logos and aesthetics of contemporary authors who have given light to many discordant aspects of Greek philosophy. 

I have read elsewhere about your interest in Theosophy. You find that there are many points of contact between the doctrine expounded by Madame Blavatsky in the monumental The secret doctrine, both in the first part on Cosmogenesis and in the second on Anthropogenesis, with what is taught in the Norse esoteric tradition?

I have always loved theosophy, there can be several aspects that combine the concepts of logos and soul set out in Blavatsky's doctrines with the esoteric Scandinavian tradition. Ethenism in its entirety is impregnated with concepts of this nature, but from some points of view of anthropogenesis we deviate, especially in the fundamental truths of human development on nature.

In the Norse tradition, the runes, known to Odin through self-sacrifice on the cosmic tree Yggdrasil and leaving one of his eyes as a pledge to Mímir, can be thought of as a sort of secret code of the cosmos, a sacred alphabet that gives life to all. the existing worlds, visible and invisible. Can you develop this concept better?

Runes are logos and blood. They are generated from the primary substance of the GinUr and are the matrix of the Jötnar to which we are very attached. Thanks to the sacrifice of the powerful, they are at the disposal of mankind. The runes are therefore available to everyone, but they are not for everyone. They are archetypes that must be decoded ... but, alas, not all sensitive humans know how to exploit a codex secret without falling into the egoic trap of the senses. 

In the Norse tradition, and not least in the episode of Odin's self-sacrifice, the idea recurs that true knowledge cannot be learned, but only remembered. Hence the ontological identity between Knowledge / Truth and Memory / Memory and the correspondence between the Source of Mímir and that of Mnemosyne in the Hellenic tradition, as well as the idea of ​​a reincarnation of the soul through cosmic cycles and different worlds, and therefore the search for that state of consciousness that the Greeks called anamnesi, or "non-forgetfulness" (of what happens to the soul in the pre-natal state of existence, in worlds more "subtle" than ours). Do you agree with what has been said?

Absolutely yes. This has been the subject of study and expansion in our text called HelVíti. Svarturgaldur. Practical manual necromantic work of northern Europe (published by Anael Sas). The whole Northern European (and no less Eurasian) esoteric process is based on the act of remembrance and its perception in the initiatory act of our tradition.

What can you tell us about the similarity between the Fylgja and the Valkyrie of the Norse tradition and similar figures from other traditions, such as the Daimon of the Greeks, the Fravashi / Peri of the Persians, the "celestial bride" or the "helping spirit" of shamanic traditions, the "astral double" of the occultists and the Guardian Angel of the Christians?

Fylgja is completely different from the nature of Valkyrie. One is a guardian and the other is a warrior. One is on a strictly personal and astral plane; the other is on the physical and "war". The aspect of the Daimon can be found in the media practice of the northern demon, which by similarities we associate with the nature of the primeval giant. The Fylgja dissociates itself from the concept of guardian angel because it does not depend on a divine nature of human control. The Fylgja for Ethenism is part of the same human soul. The astral double, on the other hand, is the result of a specific practice of Fjölkyngi.

In all ancient traditions the human being is never seen as a homogeneous entity, but rather a composite one, made up of various "souls" and various more or less "subtle" components. In what terms is this esoteric doctrine expounded in the Norse tradition and what applications does it find in your ritualistic work?

I would say fundamental for the whole etheno process. In fact, in the articulated divisions that make up the European ethene system, the human being has a soul that boasts several elements that make it the foundation of some witchcraft practices of which we find presence in most of the sagas. If I had to focus the answer to this very interesting question of yours in the context of our pertinence, the vanatrú, then I can tell you a little more. All the components of the soul ensure that the witchcraft processes are completed in the darkest art that characterizes Scandinavian folk: European necromancy. This is then to generate in the basic forms of revenge, control and ecstasy which are the fundamental interactions with the vanic people (vættir and jötnar).

The figure of the skald in the Norse tradition is roughly equivalent to that of the bard in the Celtic one or the aedo in the Greek one, being the skald the poet, the cantor, the sage, but often also the seer, the one who "having memory" knows the events beyond the barriers of space-time; all correspondences found, in the context of archaic Eurasian shamanism, in the studies of Francesco Benezzo and Mario Alinei. What are the character characteristics of the skald? How does he look at the so-called "reality"? Is the skald an exemplary figure in your sacral and experiential vision or, in the ancient Norse tradition, are there others that inspire you more?

In our tradition it has a fundamental role, above all because it arises from a process of transmutation through the sacred drink that becomes a symbol of poetic ecstasy. The development of the kenningar which follows is one of the most important esoteric phases of the tradition. But beyond this we have other realities much more present in the esoteric approaches linked to our cult, such as the Volur.

We can see a correspondence between the Niflheimr, the "World of Mists" of the Edda, and the world of fairies in the Celtic tradition? The Niflheimr, which many Christian chroniclers have seen as Hell, can one think of it as a "storehouse of protoplasm", or a "storehouse of souls" or "life not yet individualized"? Or it is more correct to see the Ginnungagap, the "whispering Abyss" that existed before cosmic manifestation was initiated?

No correlation with Celtism. The subtle nature of the Celtic "form" differs enormously from the Scandinavian one. Furthermore, the Nifheimr it is the kingdom of the mists, the birthplace of Hel: simply the kingdom of some types of giants. The Ginnungagap instead it is a superior reality (matrix of giants) of which the human soul is not composed, with all that follows.

Having read another interview you have undergone, I know your admiration for the work of Ernst Jünger. Basing your work largely on Vanir and Jötnar, how do you judge his conception of the so-called "mythical powers", chthonic and titanic in his writing At the wall of time?

They are the basis of our vision of reality, in the same crudeness exposed by Ernst Jünger. The binder is enough to taste it in our constant work to generate more and more evolutionary Ragnarök.

What correlations do you see - obviously, if you always see any - between the figure of Loki and those of other traditions such as Lucifer, Hephaestus and Prometheus?

Loki is change and synchrony linked to Chaos; looking for a correlation of this nature is almost impossible. In our tradition there is no similar figure who can unite the three realities on display. However, I can say that Surtr bonds a lot with certain Luciferian characteristics.

The Norsemen believed that the end times, the Ragnarokkr or "twilight of the gods", would come with the fire brought by Surtr, which can somehow be interpreted as the primordial fire spark of the Being who, once trapped by the advancing cosmic ice (that is, by the flow of becoming which, through the demiurgic creation, freezes the forms and the spirit in them), awaits the turning of the ages in order to be able to free himself and return to his original state. There is a correlation, even etymological, with the Latin Saturn, the mythical god-king of the Golden Age who lies in a state of "sleep" on an atemporal island, awaiting the return of the golden age of which, after the turn of the times, will he once again be king? On the other hand Saturn / Kronos was in the Greek tradition the most powerful of the Titans, and the Titanomachy fought against the Olympians led by his son Zeus seems to be equivalent to the cosmic battle of the Ragnarokkr between Aesir and the powers of chaos?

Of course! The correlation is quite spot on. The only specific thing to do: the nature not generated because it always exists of the surtrian fire lord, which makes the return of the Ragnarök and the life of the giants cyclical.

You've read CG Jung's essay wotan? What do you think? Do you think that a rediscovery and an introjection of the wotanic archetype can be useful to Western man to escape from cul de sac existential and ideological in which it has slipped in the last centuries on the wave of rationalism and materialism or, practicing the vanatru current, are there other divine archetypes that you consider more effective for this purpose?

I have read the work, and in some respects I place Wotan as the “etena” idea of ​​the process proposed by Jung, so I don't really identify it as a distinction between Asatrú and Vanatrú. In my opinion, a more substantial and escapist archetype would be one of a pre-Indo nature, such as for example nerthus, in its form of death and rebirth.

Thanks for your time and for your availability Ylenia, it was a pleasure to chat with you! I allow myself, in friendship, to advise you to read - unless you already know them! - of the Macabre tales of the North Seas (recently translated into Italian by Dagon Press) by Jonas Lie, a Norwegian writer of the late 800th century whose narrative, strongly inspired by the Scandinavian mythical-folkloric tradition, is full of Trolls, Jötnar, Draugar and references to Sami shamanism and witchcraft. It seems to me right in your strings. We have come to the end of our conversation. Is there a particular message you want to leave to our readers?

Thanks to you for the dedicated space, I will proceed with the purchase and reading of the recommended text, it will certainly enrich my soul. A message to the readers? Of course! Returning to old Europe allows the recovery of the origins of free thought, so I hope that the nature of Ethiopia is the object of greater interest in Italy and abroad.